Seven women

They are extremely busy. To gather seven of them all together in one place is almost \'mission impossible\'. We accomplished even more than that - not only bringing together seven of the most important women in the real estate market, but persuading them to have a frank talk about their early beginnings in the business, careers and cooperation with men

Magda Konstantynowicz, editor in chief of \'Eurobuild Poland\': - I feel that the real estate market is dominated by men. The covers of \'Eurobuild\' magazine bear witness to that - we can see mostly men\'s faces. March is a good month to have a look at women who play an equally important role in this business. That is why we have called this meeting. Let me begin with the question of how you ladies started out in this line of business that is so dominated by men? Because I found my way to a real estate magazine completely by chance.
Agnieszka Jachowicz, investment director of Arka BZ WBK of the FIZ Real Estate Market Fund: - So did I. I\'m a construction engineer but I had a six year break in my career. After that my thoughts about my career changed. It so happened that at the same time my friend who is also here - Małgosia Kosińska - told me that one of the foreign companies is looking for a construction engineer with a good command of English. She suggested me I should try. I went and I got it. This is how I started working for the Henry Butcher Real Estate Agency. In the early 90s all you needed was a high IQ, good command in English and you could start a career in the real estate field.
Małgorzata Kosińska, director of the Real Estate Fund Management Department of BPH TFI: - It was a little different with me. The early 90s were very interesting because the whole economy was undergoing a transformation. When something like that is happening, there are problems in the so called \'heavy lines of business\', for example in the construction industry I was involved in at that time. My boss, who was a nice guy, warned his employees that there were going to be redundancies in the company, and encouraged those of us who had our own career plans to pursue them. It was in 1992 that I became a real estate valuer. I passed an exam and I received a licence with the number 218.  It was sort of an accident, but I obtained a profession connected to real estate. Later I worked as a freelancer. One day I met a few people from the real estate department of Price Waterhouse. Krzysztof Grzesik was one of them and I started working with him. The first thing he did was to send me to... Archangelsk in Russia. I went, did what I was supposed to do and when I came back alive I got a permanent job offer.
MK: - If we mention Price Waterhouse, it is time to talk to Ms. Małgosia Cieślak.
Małgorzata Cieślak, manager of the Real Estate Department, PricewaterhouseCoopers: - In my case the route into real estate was not accidental!
MK: - Does that mean that you knew exactly what you wanted to do before you left secondary school?
MC: - In secondary school I was already appraising real estate! My mother\'s friend did it as a legal expert. I noticed how easily he made very good money out of it. I started to help him and this is how it all began. Later I finished my studies and became interested in real estate professionally and after that I did post-graduate studies at the Warsaw Polytechnic.  I started working for Price Waterhouse by accident. I was convinced that the company did not deal with real estate, but my friend who took my CV to them said: "There is a guy named Krzysztof Grzesik and he does something in real estate". This is how I found my way to PW, and started working with Małgosia Kosińska who was my first boss. The story of my professional career is sitting around this table: Gosia Kosińska, Gosia Żółtowska, Dorota Latkowska, Agnieszka Jachowicz...
Małgorzata Żółtowska, director of the Valuations Department, Jones Lang LaSalle: -  My roots are also in this company. After I graduated, I went to work for a year in the Moscow Department of PW. My experiences confirm what Małgosia Kosińska said earlier: if you survive in Russia, it means that you will be fine anywhere. After coming back to Poland I had an \'adventure\' with an advertising company, which lasted half a year, but that world was too crazy for me. The fact is that I rejoined the strong group which represents Price here. After three years I left the company and began a conscious crusade to gain the top position on this market.
Dorota Latkowska, director of Corporate Finance and Research Department, Knight Frank: - I went for a three month student exchange programme to the US where I was supposed to prepare financial programmes. After two days I realized that I did not like this job at all. The next day I was transferred to a different department, its name sounded very strange but the people were nice and they were travelling somewhere all the time. They asked me if I wanted to go with them and help to do valuations. "What is that?" - I asked. "You produce digits. Sometimes you appraise a laptop, sometimes land or real estate". "And do you travel by plane?" - I replied. "Yes, we do" - On hearing this, I immediately joined the team. The first job I did was going to Dakota to value a forest. Later there were other jobs. I really liked it. After I came back to Poland, I wanted to do the same thing and once I read an interview with Krzysztof Grzesik who was talking about Warsaw Trade Tower. I contacted him and asked him to help me with my M.S. thesis. We met the next day and after 30 minutes Krzysztof offered me a job. 
AJ: - I wasn\'t part of the PW group, but I think that it wasn\'t the company but Krzysztof Grzesik who gathered young talents around him, including women who are skilled and perserverant. I had a chance to experience his kindness as well.
MKOS: - Dear ladies - so far this conversation is focused on one man!
Marta Burek, development and marketing director, Donaldsons Poland: - My story is very different. I had finished management at Warsaw University and Iwas working in retail chains. The last one was Ahold. My experience included operating management, marketing, elaboration and implementation of marketing strategies. After Ahold started opening shopping centres in Central Europe. Later Ahold created a joint-venture company with Estatius in which Donaldsons, a UK property management company, had some stake. To consolidate its business Donaldsons acquired the remaining stake and introduced its brand to the market here. And this is how I found my way from retail to real estate. 
MK: - Now it is time to talk to Ms. Ania Tomowicz.
Anna Tomowicz, legal counsel, Salans: - Well, lawyers didn\'t like, and some still don\'t the real estate transactions. Many think that the property transactions are boring. I started working in real estate also by accident - because of one client. I was buying land for him. Later, I wanted to buy a flat. After two years of searching, I realized that real estate agents who were supposed to help me, were doing nothing to earn their money. Because of this, I decided I will take over their clients and earn their salaries. I got my licences, agents and Certified Commercial Investment Member, but my plan didn\'t work out because the legal market changed at that time and being specialized in real estate started to become very valuable.  
MK: - It seems to me that at least in the beginning of the development of the commercial real estate market, this business line was strongly feminized and it was due to one man  - Krzysztof Grzesik. How are things today?
AJ: - At the moment the real estate market is made up of a few segments, including the segment of Polish consultants, where the same number of women and men occupy the top positions. And to answer your point about the market being feminized earlier, I have my own opinion. Women are more hard-working and perservering when it comes to obtaining new professional skills. They sit, study and pass exams whenever they need to. Men, on the other hand, think about how to do it a different way.
MB: - Next to the real estate valuers and agents there is also the sector of real estate developing companies which was dominated by men from the very beginning.
MŻ: - I would agree to that and I would add that they are mostly foreigners. Very often they are strongly connected to Poland because they have been here for a long time and cannot imagine going back to their own countries.  They were the ones who brought the know-how to Poland. We used that knowledge, we watched and learned.
AJ: - 90 pct of those who came were men, because in England the real estate jobs are dominated by men. We can talk about equality, but when the children are born, the women stay at home and do not travel around the world.
MK: - Therefore, compared to Western Europe, Poland is doing well because we have more women in top positions in consulting companies.
MŻ: - Women dominate considerably by more or less 60 to 40 pct
MK: - Are they braver, eager to learn and ready to take a risk?
MŻ: - I wouldn\'t want to discriminate against men here, because it doesn\'t mean that they are not brave, hard-working etc. Maybe they are better in a different line of business and we found our place at the real estate market.  
AJ: Nevertheless, there are more men on the real estate market anyway. I wonder if this is down to antifeminism. One of my friends is convinced that this is the case. I felt that way at one time, but now I don\'t think that this is a general trend.
MKOS: - I have never experienced it.
MŻ: - Neither have I. If someone evaluates me, it is only on a professional level.
MK: - But I remember the uneasy feeling when during an interview - which I conducted together with another journalist - the interviewed person answered my questions looking at my male colleague! Let us explore another question: do women in the real estate market support one another? Do they help one another? Are they kinder to each another?
MC: - This question most probably concerns this famous male club. They do not allow any women in, exchange information and do business in their own circles. We tried to do it one time. It was called  Warsaw Women in Real Estate.
MK: - And what happened?
MC: - For a time the group functioned very well. We met and discussed important topics. Suddenly a few individuals appeared in our group who wanted to do business at our meetings. They promoted their office furniture, talked about what kind of desks you should have in offices. The meetings started to be boring.
DL: - The group started growing and became inconsistent. It is different if we meet in a group where each of us works in a similar position, has similar problems and similar experiences. Women from other branches appeared in WWRE. It doesn\'t make sense to go back to that idea, because each of us found her own circle of business contacts where gender doesn\'t matter.
AJ: - I have yet another problem. I have lots of work every day. To reach the current positions we had to obtain many kinds of qualifications, including Polish and international licences (RICS Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyor - edt.), and it requires participating in a certain number of meetings and conferences. Therefore, I just don\'t have time for other social and business meetings.
MC: - I think that we really want to prove how good we are and in order to achieve a certain position we take on too many responsibilities.
MŻ: - I do not like the word \'prove\'. I see myself as a person who doesn\'t have to prove anything to anybody including myself. I do what I can.
MKOS: - I am very surprised to hear the statements on how we see ourselves. I think that my bosses chose me to manage the fund because of my professionalism.
MŻ: - And we come to another important aspect: a team composed partly of men which is led by a female boss. Women may meet with problems here because it is hard for some to accept the fact that a female boss may be worth as much as a man.
MKOS: - In my opinion professionalism and management skills are what counts the most. If the boss is a professional, there is no problem with being accepted.
MŻ: - But cooperation between women is a little different. I am surprised in a nice way when I see young girls who finish their studies and work hard. I am sure that in a few years they will achieve top positions because this was their goal. You don\'t have to explain to them how important cooperation is.
MŻ: - But to men sometimes it is important what other men think about them. I\'ve been working with men for a long time and I know that it matters to them a lot. I have tackled these kinds of problems as well. Cooperation with men was a challenge in the beginning. 
DL: - I wonder if it is something to do with the woman-boss - man-subordinate relationship. Qualities of character are important as well. If there are men with different characters in a team and each of them wants to dominate, then the tasks should be divided in a way so that everyone feels valued. I have a feeling that women start to cooperate and help each other more easily and quickly. A man\'s way to cooperation is longer because he likes to have his own project, his own point of view and likes to feel important. 
MC: - I wouldn\'t agree that you have to treat men in such a way. The answer lies with knowing how to manage a team and it doesn\'t matter if the team is composed of men, women or is mixed. The boss should always possess interpersonal skills in order to be able to manage the team in the right way. This doesn\'t mean that a female team will deal with the project faster and better. There are also women who like to dominate. 
AT: - But it is different to negotiate with women and different with men. It is different to work for women and for men. It is not a matter of better or worse. It is just luckilly different.